Unfounded Rumors
Apr 5, 2005 | 03:41 AM
#73
Weekend Warrior
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Unfounded Rumors
Originally posted by: BlackStallion
posted by iBhigh
I think i found the back^ screename for this guy
also, im guessing u dont have any ATV's since those in your sig have never seen the light of consumers yet? i may be wrong but your secured personal identity and 3rd person point of view make men like me question your partial existence, no point in doing that unless your just trying to start something.
BlackStallion says........... get a dam life
posted by iBhigh
Yes this is an ATV site, and who are you to judge if he talks like a weirdo? Everything he said made complete sense and not once did he ever use any type of "mid-evil" talk in any of his posts. He has been nothing but nice and respectful to you even after you constantly bash on him... Quit the tough guy act and give him a chance, even if you do think he's total BS. Call his bluff, call him a liar, but he has not disrespected anyone here, atleast show him common courtesy and respect without name calling.
also, im guessing u dont have any ATV's since those in your sig have never seen the light of consumers yet? i may be wrong but your secured personal identity and 3rd person point of view make men like me question your partial existence, no point in doing that unless your just trying to start something.
BlackStallion says........... get a dam life
Apr 5, 2005 | 04:33 AM
#74
The Facility
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 4,062
Likes: 1
From: Mississippi
Unfounded Rumors
Getting back to the subject matter.......I think.........
There will never be a 250F based quad from any of the Jap Big 4. To build such a machine, it's price point will fall between a 400EX and a 450R with Honda and between a Raptor 350 and YFZ regarding Yamaha. We aren't talking about 200lb dirtbikes here.
Furthermore, you couldn't stuff one of these engines into a 300EX chassis and call it a day. Neither the frame or suspension would be suitable.
And just for good measure, consider this........the 250F engines turn more RPMs than the 450F engines to make it's power. The 250 engines also lack any significant low end to pull around a 350lb quad plus rider weight. I have help play with a similar quad a couple years ago using a YZ250F engine and it wasn't impressive at all. Felt like a modiied 300EX, to tell you the truth until you got it stretched out in 3rd gear and even then...the gain on top wasn't enough to justify the loss of all the bottom.
In regards to the 4 strokes being a phase. I do not believe so. The Top 10 guys on the 125SX East series are all 250F riders. You have to go all the way back to 12th place in points to find a guy on a 125 2 stroke.
Horsepower to weight ratio is everything when it comes to dirtbikes. Have any of you seen all the electrical BS on the 2 stroke PWCs to make them EPA??? Two extra boxes and even more wiring than what we find on them now?? Add 4 to 5 pounds to keep a certain engine type in a ball game it's already losing isn't going to happen.
And for HP regarding displacement, I haven't seen a 4 stroke yet that makes equal power to the 2 strokes of the same size....but that is not an issue. Rules are rules and as long as one engine makes better power over another....and it is legal,...why step down just for the sake of it being a 2 stroke???
Most, but certainly not all privateers run 125 engines due to their simplicity and because it is cheaper to maintain and operate over the course of a full season.
The 2 stroke versus 4 stroke debate for the past couple years remind me alot of the 3 wheels versus 4 wheels debates during the mid '80s. Some are afraid of change while other have legitimate concerns over which is better.
But either way,...the buying public decides......and in no way close does that trend lean toward a 2 stroke engine.
2 strokes may make up most of the small engines used in todays economy like someone mentioned,...but if this stat is true....it most certainly doesn't reflect on the offroad market at all. I am not into snowmobiles, PWC, or chainsaws.
Just my .02
There will never be a 250F based quad from any of the Jap Big 4. To build such a machine, it's price point will fall between a 400EX and a 450R with Honda and between a Raptor 350 and YFZ regarding Yamaha. We aren't talking about 200lb dirtbikes here.
Furthermore, you couldn't stuff one of these engines into a 300EX chassis and call it a day. Neither the frame or suspension would be suitable.
And just for good measure, consider this........the 250F engines turn more RPMs than the 450F engines to make it's power. The 250 engines also lack any significant low end to pull around a 350lb quad plus rider weight. I have help play with a similar quad a couple years ago using a YZ250F engine and it wasn't impressive at all. Felt like a modiied 300EX, to tell you the truth until you got it stretched out in 3rd gear and even then...the gain on top wasn't enough to justify the loss of all the bottom.
In regards to the 4 strokes being a phase. I do not believe so. The Top 10 guys on the 125SX East series are all 250F riders. You have to go all the way back to 12th place in points to find a guy on a 125 2 stroke.
Horsepower to weight ratio is everything when it comes to dirtbikes. Have any of you seen all the electrical BS on the 2 stroke PWCs to make them EPA??? Two extra boxes and even more wiring than what we find on them now?? Add 4 to 5 pounds to keep a certain engine type in a ball game it's already losing isn't going to happen.
And for HP regarding displacement, I haven't seen a 4 stroke yet that makes equal power to the 2 strokes of the same size....but that is not an issue. Rules are rules and as long as one engine makes better power over another....and it is legal,...why step down just for the sake of it being a 2 stroke???
Most, but certainly not all privateers run 125 engines due to their simplicity and because it is cheaper to maintain and operate over the course of a full season.
The 2 stroke versus 4 stroke debate for the past couple years remind me alot of the 3 wheels versus 4 wheels debates during the mid '80s. Some are afraid of change while other have legitimate concerns over which is better.
But either way,...the buying public decides......and in no way close does that trend lean toward a 2 stroke engine.
2 strokes may make up most of the small engines used in todays economy like someone mentioned,...but if this stat is true....it most certainly doesn't reflect on the offroad market at all. I am not into snowmobiles, PWC, or chainsaws.
Just my .02
Apr 5, 2005 | 07:02 AM
#75
Elite Pro Rider
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,380
Likes: 1
Unfounded Rumors
Knowsalot, usually I a right in line with your posts and agree completely. In this instance however, I take pride in disagreeing with just about everything you said.
Have you looked into the direct injection 2 strokes and the new evinrudes? This is not the PWC last minute jerry-rigging to meet standards, this is genuine improvement and progress.
Ever used a 4 stroke piece of yard equipment like a weed whacker or chainsaw? One day with one of those and you'll be lobbying your congressman to get the 2 strokes back.
Four stroke sleds, despite the 100 extra pounds on each model and other concerns, have worked out alright. But they are still inferior to the 2 stroke machines and the SDI of the Bomb and other similar improvements dramatically widens that gap with improved fuel mileage, more power, and obviously cleaner emissions. I have a 4 stroke sled, a 2004 1000cc sled in fact. I prefer my 96 500 2 stroke any day. If you dont care about sleds, fine. But there are tens of thousands of people that do and the snomobile lobby is bigger than the atv lobby hopes to be.
I do agree that the 250F and similar engines would not fare as well in atvs, but I beleive that the topic is on 250 2 strokes making thier way back into atvs not the thumpers you cited.
Have you looked into the direct injection 2 strokes and the new evinrudes? This is not the PWC last minute jerry-rigging to meet standards, this is genuine improvement and progress.
Ever used a 4 stroke piece of yard equipment like a weed whacker or chainsaw? One day with one of those and you'll be lobbying your congressman to get the 2 strokes back.
Four stroke sleds, despite the 100 extra pounds on each model and other concerns, have worked out alright. But they are still inferior to the 2 stroke machines and the SDI of the Bomb and other similar improvements dramatically widens that gap with improved fuel mileage, more power, and obviously cleaner emissions. I have a 4 stroke sled, a 2004 1000cc sled in fact. I prefer my 96 500 2 stroke any day. If you dont care about sleds, fine. But there are tens of thousands of people that do and the snomobile lobby is bigger than the atv lobby hopes to be.
I do agree that the 250F and similar engines would not fare as well in atvs, but I beleive that the topic is on 250 2 strokes making thier way back into atvs not the thumpers you cited.
Apr 5, 2005 | 10:04 AM
#76
Shed Knocker Rider
Harley Punk!
Harley Punk!
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 35,876
Likes: 2
Unfounded Rumors
Where do you guys get info on the new generations of 2-smokes? This is something I am very interested in and think it would be great for the market of ATV's. Don't know if it will ever happen or not tho[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
Apr 5, 2005 | 10:28 AM
#77
Pro Rider
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 307
Likes: 0
Unfounded Rumors
Ive followed this thread with an open mind, Ive even thought that some of comments were worth there wght in gold and what the heck if only one or two things do come true it was still fun to dream. Alot of it sounds like "What if I won the lottery" comments and thats ok. But one thing for sure...... I dont agree that 2 strokes are on the way out, I to watched the boat show with the NEW 2 strokes that were cleaner, faster and cheaper to run motors.
BUT THE COMMENT I HAVE TO SAY HE11 YEAH TO IS "spend a day with a 4 stroke weedeater" I did.... One day and that weedeater ended up busted in half and I still have "just the motor" hangin in my garage!!!!!!!!! Thanks for making me laugh... that brought back some memories.
BUT THE COMMENT I HAVE TO SAY HE11 YEAH TO IS "spend a day with a 4 stroke weedeater" I did.... One day and that weedeater ended up busted in half and I still have "just the motor" hangin in my garage!!!!!!!!! Thanks for making me laugh... that brought back some memories.
Apr 5, 2005 | 01:37 PM
#79
Thread Starter
|
The Champ
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,615
Likes: 0
From: San Diego
Unfounded Rumors
Knowsalot has always had my respect and I know that his level of information matches that of his moniker. You may in fact be correct about not seeing a 250f powered quad in the future, though there are those still being tested, very recently in fact.
I believe it would need to be created as a replacement for say, the Blaster, to bridge the gap between youth and adult performance atv's.
As far as 2-smokes, the fact there are such advancements in emissions control show that there is incredible amounts of R&D going on....today, we have 4-strokes that have replaced the beloved 2-strokes.....make that claim 6 years ago, you'd be labeled crazy. That being said, never say never that 2-strokes can't make a comeback...anything's possible.
The Phantom....likes the direction of the conversation...
I believe it would need to be created as a replacement for say, the Blaster, to bridge the gap between youth and adult performance atv's.
As far as 2-smokes, the fact there are such advancements in emissions control show that there is incredible amounts of R&D going on....today, we have 4-strokes that have replaced the beloved 2-strokes.....make that claim 6 years ago, you'd be labeled crazy. That being said, never say never that 2-strokes can't make a comeback...anything's possible.
The Phantom....likes the direction of the conversation...
Apr 5, 2005 | 02:15 PM
#80
Monkey Rider
Afro-Engineer
FREE AND NOW are the best
Afro-Engineer
FREE AND NOW are the best
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 38,396
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From: The Asphalt Jungle
Unfounded Rumors
So the question is now. What sorta timeline does anyone figure were looking at for a similar technology to direct injection 2 smoke to hit Mocicle & Quadcicle engines? I would think that would be Bombardier's sales advantage if that fofitty was flaunting this technology [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] boy would that be fun.