Fascinating!!
It sounds to me like a few of you quad guys need to join the m/c club. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

Or are you in that already?

 

Im all for saftey but there is a point to where its so safe its not fun anymore. I would venture to say most people who enjoy motorsports do so becasue of the excitment and risk inherant with it. Single track on a motorcycle is funner than double track. you got one valley to work in. I remember riding a local forrest area before quads were allowed in there. and the trails were much better for a bike then. Although I ride a quad now and they are pretty kicktail for a quad but the quads ruined some of the Serpintines where you could go high bank to bank and wind down thru a ravine. now those are all straight and wide. no longer the fun rollercoaster it once was.

 

mywifesquad-Actually our club is very much divided over the issue of joining with a motorcycle club, and voting is going on right now. and will continue up until the 22nd at the club meeting. I think many members will probably drop out of the club if they align theirselves with the motorcycle club and become a sub-chapter. Many different agendas and thoughts on this controversy.

 

Im not a proponet of chaptering under the the CCC [cycle conservation club] as a ATV club,however, given the fact that the largest ATV club in the State of Michigan is only two years old and we cannot yet afford to buy HIGH PRICED insurance to do trail maintenance ect,I dont think we have to many other options but to chapter under the CCC so we can use THEIR insurance for now?? I am going to SUGGEST that the ATV OFF ROAD CLUB of Michigan TRY to buy our OWN insurance for our OWN ATV club before we concider chaptering under ANY cycle club.

I'd even throw in the first 100 bucks to help us buy our OWN exclusive club insurance.

Bill

 

Muddy-I agree that the move to CCC would not benefit the ATV club excpt for trail maintenace insurance. It would seem a far better move for the club to hold a raffle (new atv) and try to raise money for insurance that way, or as was mentione by one member to take out a loan to pay the premium. It doesn't seem like us dirt bikers are giving us ATV riders much incentive to join their club. When they build bridges that are exactly 50 inches wide or only cut 24 inches out of a tree across the trail, they send a message how they feel about our safety.

 

So riding on a wider trail is going to be safer?? Have you ever been to the Little Manistee / Lincoln Hills trail system. That is both 2-track and single track that parallel themselves. On a busy weekend that 2-track trail is positivily frightening. The bikes and quads travel that trail as fast as humanly possible going around the blind corners sideways. Exactly how is that safe? Give people more room to ride and all they do is ride that much faster.

Me and my 9yr old boy ride the single track on our motorcycles. I would much rather have him hit a tree at 10-15mph than 40-50mph (or get hit head on at a combined speed aproaching 80mph).

Then there is the issue of the wider a trail is the more the sun seems to get to it drying out the soil and turning it into powdered sand. Again at Linoln Hills I can always tell were the 2-track is because there is a nonstop wall of dust 30ft tall running thru the woods. I dont know how people can tolerate riding in conditions like that.

I guarentee that if all the trails in Michigan were to me widened to 60" you would see that me and a vast majority of Michigan dirtbikers would never set foot in the woods again (wich I just know wouldn't hurt a few of your feelings). I see no thrill at all in pointing my bike straight down a 60"+ wide trail and twisting the throttle to the stops for miles on end. Where is the skill involved in twisting the throttle to the stops down a wide trail. There is none. It takes skills to negatiate the narrow trails. You have to slip the clutch, learn how to weight the pegs, learn how to read the terrain. 2 years ago I had my boy out to Drummond island riding his TTR90. He was 8 yrs old at the time. To my amazement he did awsome and had an absolute blast. I know adults that wont ride that place and he loved it. We rode about 25 miles of the nastiest terrain the Rock had to offer. Do you think he would of been able to do that if I would of brought him up riding nothing but wide, straight, flat 2-tracks? Hell no.

Michigan has no real terrain to work with to make the trails interesting and give them charecter. We have no real hills or rocky terain. All we have is trees. Winding the trail around thru the trees is about the only way I can see to make a trail interesting to ride and keep the speeds down.

Folks say how other states have made wide trails work. Yea well other states have mountain ranges to ride thru. Rocky and wet areas to ride thru. I rode Moab a few years back. And at jeep width those trails are as challanging as anything I have ever rode. It was awsome. But what works there dont work here. We dont have the rock. We dont have the mountains. All we have is loose sandy soil and trees. That is what we have to work with to make a trail fun and challanging. Take the trees out of the equation and what do you have? Sand. Time to mount up the paddle tires boys and girls cause your gonna need them.

All right there is my rant for the day. Thanks for listening.

YZman CCC member and single tracker for life.

 

Really? What's ironic about the president of Great Lakes Dual Sporters using a screen name that references one of his preferred road types? I do put down 10K miles/year on my 520exc which is mostly riding the Dual Sport routes, we put together for 10+ events each year.
All that saddle time gives me a different perspective on wide(r) trails, both from personal experience and observed. For example, when we lay out a DS course, we will purposely avoid ORV Routes (the 72" wide stuff) because of the traffic and excessive speeds encountered.

Note that 60" trail does not equate to easier grading equipment access when compared to 50" trail. Snowmobile Trails are 8 foot minimum.

 

I can see YZman's point, and I respect his opinion, but my opinion differs. I personally believe that making the trails wider will make the trails safer for everyone involved.

You can't just say that people will only fly down a wider trail. You and I both know that there are people that fly down the motorcycle trails like their on I-75. This is not going to stop. I understand that you have a 10(?) year old son that loves to ride his dirt bike and that is great, but the fact of the matter is that these trails were not built with children in mind, you have to understand that. I would say the average dirtbike rider, or ATV rider for that matter, is probably in his teens to early 40's. When you go out on any trail you have to understand that there is a certain amount of risk in doing so. Your son, please don't take this the wrong way, is definitely not going to be as able of a rider as someone say twice his age and probably twice his weight and ability. These people out number the smaller riders (kids, etc.....) on the trails by a large margin. The way I see it, you, your son, me, and everyone else are going to be safer with wider trails to work with. If were all givin' more room to maneuver on the trails, accidents can be avoided alot easier. Also, 60" wide trails would also bring the trails closer to being able to handle two lane traffic. That would enable us faster riders, me included (TRX450R), to pass the slower riders whoever they maybe without having to wait for a huge open area or a stopsign to be able to do so.

Now the challenge aspect for you dirtbike riders I can see that would take some work. Thats not to say that it can't be done, but it would take some work to make the trails challenging enough for the biker's to ride on.

 

If we had more wide trails, the ones we have would not be so crowded. ATV riders comprise the majority of registered orv's yet the 24 in trails are the majority of mileage, and yet the dirt bike people are asking for more 24 in trails.Fair?

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: stunna65305
I dont agree. Kids are part of the equation. To say otherwise is crazy. It is just as legal for them to be out there as any of us. Yes kids are outnumbered by great numbers by adults on the trail but they are out there and love to ride. Ive given my kid a choice numerous times between the wide trail and single track and he picks the single track every time. The wide stuff is too sandy. The single track holds together better than the wide trails do. Offroading is a family sport not just for the adults.

Ive seen my kid time and time again, as soon as he sees a wide straight away he twists the throttle. They all do it. I think its in our nature.

And this isn't even really about the kids anyways. Yea there is the dad side of me that has to protect my kid. But he is a good rider. He can pretty much take care of himself in the woods on his bike. Heck Im 37 and I wont ride the wide trails either. I have enough sence to stay off them. They are dangerious as 2-tracker will attest to. Even if you are putzing along the wide trail at a easy 15mph. If someone comes flying around a blind corner (on wide trail) on a CRF450 or banshee your gonna be a hood ornament and its gonna hurt.

There is a saying that I like. Speed is relavent to the terrain you are riding on. 20mph on the 60" trail is slow as hell. 20mph in the single track is flying. Ive rode the single track with riders that cant stand it. Its because they cant keep up with me. All they have ever done is hit the wide stuff and hold it open. They dont understand the above statement at all.

I realize this isn't all about speed. But the way I look at it that is a big part of it. Yes there are some of us out there that know enough not to just pin it. But I fear we are the minority. The way I look at it...Wider trails = faster speeds. Faster speeds x non directional trails = more trips to the emergency room.

Just curious. How many of us here are actually out there walking the trails doing the trail mainentce? I do. I volunteer my time year after year along with my kid to keep the trails open. I see what they are like. And what can happen to them. I have some trails change so much in the last 10 years or so that If I showed you before and after pictures you wouldn't recognize them. And the bigest thing I see is people riding where they are not supposed to be and tearing the hell outta the surounding areas. This is what gets the attention of the DNR / forrest service and that is what really pisses them off.

Anyways I agree that It would be nice to see one trail system that everyone could ride and still enjoy in there own way. I dont know how it is going to happen given our geography. But it would be nice.