1) Engine problems.. If your quad wont run..post in here.

New CDI...

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
  #41  
Old 07-01-2012, 11:13 PM
LynnEdwards's Avatar
Electrical Expert
Likes High Voltage In The Tub!
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tracy, California, USA
Posts: 3,260
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes on 13 Posts
Default

My comments in blue:

Originally Posted by cesar110
I attached a photo showing the "new" stator without the epoxy. I customized the ignition coil core and wrapped the coil cores in electrical tape( I don't if it was a good idea, 176F )[I don't know where the 176 degrees F comes from, but my experience with electrical tape is that over time it turns to goo at even 70 degrees F. I would not even consider electrical tape. How about some kind of RTV silicone compound like Dow 3140 or Dow 3145. Its good for like 300 degrees C, and non corrosive curing (unlike bathtub caulk which cures by exhuding acetic acid [vinegar smell]). Epoxy would probably work too. ]. I'm not that familiar with AC, but the coils are connected in series like this :_: this :=: is parallel right? [Series is the best if your going to optimize for one regulator. But two of the stock battery charge windings with two cheap regulators all wired up in parallel may be a simpler R&D endeavor...].Is it OK if I have some magnet wire going out a couple inches from the stator? [This is not a problem electrically. Mechanically the magnet wire is reallt vulnerable to scratches that will short the wire to ground. Noramlly exposed magnet wire is run through protective tubing of some sort such as fiberglass]. I measured the resistance of the ground and the coil and I got ~300 ohms, is that OK because I'm afraid I grounded the stator on accident. [Not good at all. It should be open. Are you sure you're on the right scale? It is hard to picture a short to ground that is 300 ohms when the end to end resistance across the entire coil should be about 0.5 ohms maximum. I'd recheck that again. Make sure you are on the 2K ohm scale (2000 ohms) when you measure that].

The ignition switch is a 5 pole magneto style switch. It has B (battery), G (ground), L (lights,output), S (solenoid), M (kill). When I twist the key to start it shuts off the output but it runs the starter. [I don't know what you mean by the phrase: "shut off the output". The output of what? The coil? The regulator? The stator? The lights?]. I might have to get a different switch or figure a alternative. Can I use my old R/R? I'm not sure if its going to work because I think its half wave. The "old" stator had a charging coil that was 2 coils in one (half coil for lights, half coil for battery) and one smaller coil for ignition of course. So this "new" stator is probably way better! [You will need to but a 4 pin regulator that is full wave GY6 engine style].The old coil had string wrapped with the magnet wire, and was kept into place with fabric and some kind of sealant. [Which coil? Was this the ignition power coil? Winding a coil with a combo of wire and string is a classic method to reduce disributed capacitance].

All this is relevant to New CDI.... Right?
 
  #42  
Old 07-01-2012, 11:35 PM
LynnEdwards's Avatar
Electrical Expert
Likes High Voltage In The Tub!
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tracy, California, USA
Posts: 3,260
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes on 13 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by cesar110
After rereading some of your posts, I might have made a big mistake. I used some sheet metal to customize the ignition coil. I got a sheet and twisted it around the core and made it taller by pounding it flat at the top. So the coil is bigger at bottom and gets smaller and thinner at top. Like this: lL, there is a little bit of a slope and space in the core. I'm not sure about the permeability of the sheet metal (off some carport pipes).
I'm having a little difficulty imagining what you've done. I've never taken apart a 2 coil 110cc stator - let alone take apart an ignition power coil. I'm wondering why you have to add sheet metal.... I would expect the core would be the same. But I don't know...

I'm worried about sheet metal being "twisted it around the core". You must not form anything that looks like a shorted turn around the core. Look at the wire topology that you have wound, where the wires go around the core. The spinning magnets generate AC voltages on these wires. If wind another conductor around the core (like a hunk of steel) and the ends short together forming a conductive loop then all power generation stops. All the magnetic flux is used up making enormous current in the shorted turn wrapped aroand the coil. Because it is a short there is no output voltage, so the power is zero. Remember that output power is the product of current times voltage. The current is high but the voltage is zero. Zero volts time any anount of current is still zero power.

I've not looked, but I bet if you examine the core section inside the coils that you would you will find that the core itself is made up of laminated and insulted thin sheets of transformer steel stacked up. This is to keep the core itself from forming a shorted turn. These type of losses are called Eddy Current Losses if you want to look it up.

Another less dramatic loss could be from the added material being reluctant to reverse it's internal magnetic domains (on a molecular level). When forced to do so under a large and alternating magnetic field they dissipate some power which goes up as heat. It's called Hysteresis Losses. The stock core is most likely made from transformer steel (a special steel alloy) that minimizes this hysteresis loss effect.
 
  #43  
Old 07-02-2012, 01:08 AM
cesar110's Avatar
Range Rover
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Edmonds, Washington
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

I got 3 VAC when I tested the stator. So I rewound the coil even tighter and and put some cardboard on the core. I tested it and got ~10 VAC and ~20 VAC at full speed. But that was with only one coil, the one with the core that was originally for charging the battery. Your right about my customized coil core(originally for ignition), I will probably take the sheet metal off and leave as is. I don't think ~10 VAC at idle is going to work. Getting the ignition coil and rewrapping it would probably give me 2-3 more volts so the voltage is a little higher at idle, right (the ignition coil core is 1/4 the size of the battery coil core) ? When I said the ignition switch shuts off the "output" when starting, I meant that the output side of the ignition switch turns off while starting. How do I measure the wattage of this stator?
 
  #44  
Old 07-02-2012, 01:29 AM
cesar110's Avatar
Range Rover
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Edmonds, Washington
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Instead of using the ignition coil core to make another coil, should I buy a another charging coil core? Because the ignition coil core is small.
 
  #45  
Old 07-02-2012, 03:25 PM
cesar110's Avatar
Range Rover
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Edmonds, Washington
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

So I will probably buy another coil core for charging the battery and rewrap it. I guess I might be able to put some extra wraps on this coil which might give a little more voltage. So do you think the best way to regulate this is to get 2 regulators, connect them to each coil, and connect the 2 regulators in parallel? Or I could make a double phase stator!
 
  #46  
Old 07-03-2012, 12:20 AM
LynnEdwards's Avatar
Electrical Expert
Likes High Voltage In The Tub!
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tracy, California, USA
Posts: 3,260
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes on 13 Posts
Default

[quote=cesar110;3124013]I got 3 VAC when I tested the stator. So I rewound the coil even tighter and and put some cardboard on the core. I tested it and got ~10 VAC and ~20 VAC at full speed. But that was with only one coil, the one with the core that was originally for charging the battery. Your right about my customized coil core(originally for ignition), I will probably take the sheet metal off and leave as is. I don't think ~10 VAC at idle is going to work. Getting the ignition coil and rewrapping it would probably give me 2-3 more volts so the voltage is a little higher at idle, right (the ignition coil core is 1/4 the size of the battery coil core) ? /quote]

I didn't know that the ignition coil side had a smaller core. I've never taken one apart. This is really significant. The core volume is crucial to power generation.

And remember (this is really important), you're not simply trying to generate more voltage. Instead you are attempting to generate power. Note that electrical Power (usually measured in watts) is voltage multiplied times current (for resistive loads like incandescant lights, heaters, etc.).

If your driving things that are capacitive or inductive (like electrical motors) then the math gets a lot more complicated. Don't go there, concentrate on loading your stator output (through the regulator(s) or not) with lights, or other purely resistive loads to keep your life simpler.

So more voltage is not neccesarilly good. Consider the extremes again: If you put 1 million turns on the battery charge winding you would generate a huge voltage at any speed. But you would generate nearly zero current. Zero current times any voltage is zero power. On the other hand if you put just one turn around the core made out formed copper plate that fills up the whole coil volume you would get enormous current, but almost zero voltage . The output current is high but the power is near zero because of the near zero voltage. In between these extremes you get moderate voltage *and* current. At some point in the middle you will find the maximum output power point based on some engine speed (I'd pick 3000 RPM), and the number of turns.

And once again this is difficult to model. You have to experiment. Again this is a major endeavor.

Originally Posted by cesar110
...When I said the ignition switch shuts off the "output" when starting, I meant that the output side of the ignition switch turns off while starting...
This isn't right. Do you have any links to this switch? Where did you get it?

Originally Posted by cesar110
...How do I measure the wattage of this stator?
AC RMS Voltage times AC RMS current for purely resistive loads.
 
  #47  
Old 07-03-2012, 12:33 AM
cesar110's Avatar
Range Rover
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Edmonds, Washington
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

So I should go parallel with these coils? Is 10 volts going to work at idle?
 
  #48  
Old 07-03-2012, 10:48 PM
cesar110's Avatar
Range Rover
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Edmonds, Washington
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

The switch is magneto ignition style. Electrical tape rated for 176 degrees F (napa professional). Could I make a 3 phase stator by having 1 coil and 1 coil that is divided into 2 (half wave I think)?
 
  #49  
Old 07-04-2012, 02:03 AM
LynnEdwards's Avatar
Electrical Expert
Likes High Voltage In The Tub!
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tracy, California, USA
Posts: 3,260
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes on 13 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by cesar110
So I should go parallel with these coils? Is 10 volts going to work at idle?
Stators at idle should not be expected to work very well at idle. Even my 150cc 8 pole stator cannot power the headlights at idle. Some of the current powering the lights flows out of the battery (draining it). Of course when I increase the engine speed the stator can more than keep up with the lights and has some excess power to spare keeping the battery charged.

10 volts AC is 14 volts DC when rectified and filtered. But is this is unloaded. WHen you start drawing current the voltage will drop. Did you ever measure your stock coil? How does that compare?
 
  #50  
Old 07-04-2012, 02:06 AM
LynnEdwards's Avatar
Electrical Expert
Likes High Voltage In The Tub!
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tracy, California, USA
Posts: 3,260
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes on 13 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by cesar110
So I should go parallel with these coils? Is 10 volts going to work at idle?
If you go in parallel you'll need two GY6 engine style 4 pin rectifiers. One rectifier for each coil, and you wire together the 12 volts DC and Ground outputs.
 


Quick Reply: New CDI...



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:13 PM.