RedCat VX-80cc ignition issue
#1
08-10-2012 | 10:07 PM
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Weekend Warrior
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From: eastern NC
RedCat VX-80cc ignition issue
I have recently acquired a RedCat Vx-80 I believe that is the model. It was not rid in enough to take the little fingers off the tires. So the machine is pretty much Brand new minus the sun bleached plastic. Okay down to the issue I have at hand. I got it home and checked it for spark when I first push the started button it gives a decent spark and then nothing can turn it over until the cows come home and nothing. But when I let go of the starter switch it will spark again. So if I tap the starter button repeatedly I get a good clean spark. If I try the kick start there is nothing no spark at all. Direction and guidance will be appreciated to the highest degree. Just not sure where to start in resolving. I have missed any important details I will provide them ASAP and to the best of my ability. Thank you in advance for any help you all can provide.
#2
08-10-2012 | 11:54 PM
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There are so many brands out there I don't even try anymore to keep up.
1) Is this a four stroke? Two stroke?
2) What size engine?
3) How many pins on your CDI?
4) Do you know if you have a DC powered ignition, or an AC powered ignition? If you don't know just say "I dont know".
You need to find a meter for the next steps (just so you're warned
).
1) Is this a four stroke? Two stroke?
2) What size engine?
3) How many pins on your CDI?
4) Do you know if you have a DC powered ignition, or an AC powered ignition? If you don't know just say "I dont know".
You need to find a meter for the next steps (just so you're warned
).
#3
08-11-2012 | 07:12 AM
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Weekend Warrior
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From: eastern NC
my start
[QUOTE=LynnEdwards;3131296]
1) Is this a four stroke? Two stroke? Four stroke
2) What size engine? 80CC
3) How many pins on your CDI? 6 pin two connector round plugs
4) Do you know if you have a DC powered ignition, or an AC powered ignition? From my research I believe that it is the A/C system but I am not 100% certain.
I took a minute this morning and have done a little tracking on the wiring. I took the ignition switch off and the left hand controls. using the tone function of my meter this is what I found. Starting with the key switch Blk/Yellow to Blk/wht = tone w/ off position. Red - Orange = tone key on. Orange- gray = tone key on all in the lights on position.
Then I took the left hand controls off to check them and this is what I found.
red/bls- white/blk = kill switch, operated the switch when in the run position no tone when moved to off I get tone. Green -yellow= starter tone when button pressed. Blue-white- gray= head lights.
1) Is this a four stroke? Two stroke? Four stroke
2) What size engine? 80CC
3) How many pins on your CDI? 6 pin two connector round plugs
4) Do you know if you have a DC powered ignition, or an AC powered ignition? From my research I believe that it is the A/C system but I am not 100% certain.
I took a minute this morning and have done a little tracking on the wiring. I took the ignition switch off and the left hand controls. using the tone function of my meter this is what I found. Starting with the key switch Blk/Yellow to Blk/wht = tone w/ off position. Red - Orange = tone key on. Orange- gray = tone key on all in the lights on position.
Then I took the left hand controls off to check them and this is what I found.
red/bls- white/blk = kill switch, operated the switch when in the run position no tone when moved to off I get tone. Green -yellow= starter tone when button pressed. Blue-white- gray= head lights.
#4
08-12-2012 | 10:10 PM
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WE need to find out whether you have an AC or DC powered ignition. So I'm going to post a generic procedure for finding that out first, followed by the generic ignition system test for both AC and DC powered CDIs. Once you find which version CDI you have (AC or DC) then you can use the appropriate additional procedure and ignore the inappropriate one.
When you do the tests you'll need to measure AC volts, DC volts, and resistances - all on the proper scale. Do not attempt to use the "tone" setting on your meter any more - this is way off base and won't give you any relevant info at all. Tone output from a meter has its place for some types of simple measurements - but this isn't one of them. Follow the procedures exactly, and report back all info. Results like "I got nothing", or "it all measured good" are unacceptable...
Pay particular attention to the Timing/Trigger tests. Single spark issues at the beginning and end of the starter motor engagement are most oftern associated with trigger issues.
Do you have a kick start? If so, check to see if you have a single spark at the beginning and end of the kick start session also - without the starter motor neing involved...
When you do the tests you'll need to measure AC volts, DC volts, and resistances - all on the proper scale. Do not attempt to use the "tone" setting on your meter any more - this is way off base and won't give you any relevant info at all. Tone output from a meter has its place for some types of simple measurements - but this isn't one of them. Follow the procedures exactly, and report back all info. Results like "I got nothing", or "it all measured good" are unacceptable...
Pay particular attention to the Timing/Trigger tests. Single spark issues at the beginning and end of the starter motor engagement are most oftern associated with trigger issues.
Do you have a kick start? If so, check to see if you have a single spark at the beginning and end of the kick start session also - without the starter motor neing involved...
#5
08-12-2012 | 10:16 PM
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I forgot to add the generic porcedures... So here they are:
AC Powered CDI:
And the DC powered CDI:
The 2 plug 6 wire CDIs come in two different designs. One is powered off 12 volts DC, and the other is powered off a moderately high voltage AC which comes from the stator. Unfortunately there is no reliable way to tell the difference between the two by just looking at them. To be sure you need to use a meter to find out which you have:
1) Unplug the CDI, and turn on the ignition. Do not crank the starter motor. Use a meter to measure the *DC* voltage on the pin labeled "AC ignition power" in the wiring harness to both ground pins in the 4 pin CDI connector. If you measure 12 volts DC then you have a DC powered CDI.
2) If you don't measure 12 volts DC on the ignition power pin, then switch the meter over to measure AC volts on the 200 volt scale. While cranking the starter motor, measure the AC voltage on the "AC Ignition Power" pin to the the Ground pin. You should see 40 to 80 volts AC. If you measure AC voltage when the starter is turning then you have an AC powered CDI.
Using a meter is the only 100% reliable way to figure out if your CDI is AC or DC powered. But there are some clues you can use that are usually (but not always) correct:
A) DC CDIs tend to be a little larger than their AC powered counterpart. This is because the DC powered CDI needs a bunch more circuitry to convert the 12 volts DC to the moderately high voltage supply that all CDIs must have.
B) Most (but not all) DC powered quad ignition systems do not use the kill switch input pin. The CDI connector pin usually has no wire tied to it. AC powered quad ignition systems usually do use the kill switch input pin.
1) Unplug the CDI, and turn on the ignition. Do not crank the starter motor. Use a meter to measure the *DC* voltage on the pin labeled "AC ignition power" in the wiring harness to both ground pins in the 4 pin CDI connector. If you measure 12 volts DC then you have a DC powered CDI.
2) If you don't measure 12 volts DC on the ignition power pin, then switch the meter over to measure AC volts on the 200 volt scale. While cranking the starter motor, measure the AC voltage on the "AC Ignition Power" pin to the the Ground pin. You should see 40 to 80 volts AC. If you measure AC voltage when the starter is turning then you have an AC powered CDI.
Using a meter is the only 100% reliable way to figure out if your CDI is AC or DC powered. But there are some clues you can use that are usually (but not always) correct:
A) DC CDIs tend to be a little larger than their AC powered counterpart. This is because the DC powered CDI needs a bunch more circuitry to convert the 12 volts DC to the moderately high voltage supply that all CDIs must have.
B) Most (but not all) DC powered quad ignition systems do not use the kill switch input pin. The CDI connector pin usually has no wire tied to it. AC powered quad ignition systems usually do use the kill switch input pin.
To troubleshoot no spark problems on a 6 pin AC powered CDI it makes sense to start in the middle (the CDI), measure as much as we can and branch out from there. For the CDI to do its thing it needs power, a trigger pulse, and it must must be inhibited via the kill switch input pin.
1) Unplug the CDI. Turn the ignition switch on. Set all kill switches the the "run" position. In the wiring harness, measure the resistance of the kill switch pin to the ground pin on the 20K ohm scale. It should read infinite ohms (same as when the meter leads are hanging free and not touching anything). It should not read zero ohms (shorted).
2) Leave the CDI unplugged. Use a meter to measure the resistance of the AC ignition power pin in the wiring harness to the ground wire on the 2K ohm scale. You should read approximately 400 ohms. What do you measure?
3) In a similar fashion measure the resistance of the Ignition Trigger Pulse pin to the ground pin. You should see 150 ohms or so. What do you measure?
4) Switch your meter over to measure AC volts on the 200 volt scale. Leave the CDI unplugged. While cranking the engine, measure the voltage on the AC Ignition Power pin in the wiring harness to the ground pin. You should measure 40 to 80 volts AC. What do you measure?
5) Set your meter down to the lowest scale you have for measuring AC volts. 2 volts would be ideal, but some meters don't go that low. In that case use the lowest scale you have. While cranking the engine, measure the voltage on the Ignition Trigger Pulse pin in the wiring harness to the ground pin. You should measure 0.2 to 0.5 volts AC. What do you measure?
6) Now plug the CDI back in. Measure the AC voltage on the Ignition Coil pin to the ground pin using the 200 volt scale. If you have to, use a sewing pin to poke through the wire insulation and then put the meter probe on the sewing pin. But don't hold your fingers on the connection during the next test - there may be high voltage here when the engine is turning. With the ignition on and all kill switches set to the "run" position, crank the starter motor. You should see voltages bouncing around at random values and the meter captures all or part of a spark event. What do you see?
1) Unplug the CDI. Turn the ignition switch on. Set all kill switches the the "run" position. In the wiring harness, measure the resistance of the kill switch pin to the ground pin on the 20K ohm scale. It should read infinite ohms (same as when the meter leads are hanging free and not touching anything). It should not read zero ohms (shorted).
2) Leave the CDI unplugged. Use a meter to measure the resistance of the AC ignition power pin in the wiring harness to the ground wire on the 2K ohm scale. You should read approximately 400 ohms. What do you measure?
3) In a similar fashion measure the resistance of the Ignition Trigger Pulse pin to the ground pin. You should see 150 ohms or so. What do you measure?
4) Switch your meter over to measure AC volts on the 200 volt scale. Leave the CDI unplugged. While cranking the engine, measure the voltage on the AC Ignition Power pin in the wiring harness to the ground pin. You should measure 40 to 80 volts AC. What do you measure?
5) Set your meter down to the lowest scale you have for measuring AC volts. 2 volts would be ideal, but some meters don't go that low. In that case use the lowest scale you have. While cranking the engine, measure the voltage on the Ignition Trigger Pulse pin in the wiring harness to the ground pin. You should measure 0.2 to 0.5 volts AC. What do you measure?
6) Now plug the CDI back in. Measure the AC voltage on the Ignition Coil pin to the ground pin using the 200 volt scale. If you have to, use a sewing pin to poke through the wire insulation and then put the meter probe on the sewing pin. But don't hold your fingers on the connection during the next test - there may be high voltage here when the engine is turning. With the ignition on and all kill switches set to the "run" position, crank the starter motor. You should see voltages bouncing around at random values and the meter captures all or part of a spark event. What do you see?
To troubleshoot no spark problems on a 6 pin DC powered CDI it makes sense to start in the middle (the CDI), measure as much as we can and branch out from there. For the CDI to do its thing it needs power, a trigger pulse, and it must not be inhibited via the kill switch input pin.
1) Unplug the CDI. Turn the ignition switch on. Set all kill switches the the "run" position. In the wiring harness, look to see if you have a wire on the kill switch pin. If you do, measure the resistance of the kill switch pin to the ground pin on the 20K ohm scale. It should read infinite ohms (same as when the meter leads are hanging free and not touching anything). It should not read zero ohms (shorted).
2) Leave the CDI unplugged. Turn off the ignition switch. Set your meter to the lowest resistance scale you have (like 2 ohms or 20 ohms full scale). Measure the resistance of the "Ignition Coil" pin in the wiring harness to the ground pin. You should read something around 0.7 ohms (but not zero ohms). What do your measure?
3) Leave the CDI unplugged and the ignition switch off. Set your meter to the lowest resistance scale you have (like 2 ohms or 20 ohms full scale). Measure the resistance of the "Ground" pin in the wiring harness to the the negative battery terminal. You should read zero ohms. What do your measure?
4) Leave the CDI unplugged, and turn the ignition switch into the "on" position. Use a meter to measure the DC voltage on the pin labeled "AC ignition power" in the wiring harness to the ground wire on the 20 volt DC scale. You should read battery voltage (12 volts). What do you measure?
5) Leave the CDI unplugged. Use a meter to measure the resistance of the "Ignition Trigger Pulse" pin in the wiring harness to the ground wire on the 2K ohm scale. You should read approximately 150 ohms. What do you measure?
6) Set your meter down to the lowest scale you have for measuring AC volts. 2 volts would be ideal, but some meters don't go that low. In that case use the lowest scale you have. While cranking the engine, measure the voltage on the Ignition Trigger Pulse pin in the wiring harness to the ground pin. You should measure 0.2 to 0.5 volts AC. What do you measure?
7) Now plug the CDI back in. Measure the AC voltage on the Ignition Coil pin to the ground pin using the 200 volt scale. If you have to, use a sewing pin to poke through the wire insulation and then put the meter probe on the sewing pin. But don't hold your fingers on the connection during the next test - there may be high voltage here when the engine is turning. With the ignition on and all kill switches set to the "run" position, crank the starter motor. You should see voltages bouncing around at random values and the meter captures all or part of a spark event. What do you see?
1) Unplug the CDI. Turn the ignition switch on. Set all kill switches the the "run" position. In the wiring harness, look to see if you have a wire on the kill switch pin. If you do, measure the resistance of the kill switch pin to the ground pin on the 20K ohm scale. It should read infinite ohms (same as when the meter leads are hanging free and not touching anything). It should not read zero ohms (shorted).
2) Leave the CDI unplugged. Turn off the ignition switch. Set your meter to the lowest resistance scale you have (like 2 ohms or 20 ohms full scale). Measure the resistance of the "Ignition Coil" pin in the wiring harness to the ground pin. You should read something around 0.7 ohms (but not zero ohms). What do your measure?
3) Leave the CDI unplugged and the ignition switch off. Set your meter to the lowest resistance scale you have (like 2 ohms or 20 ohms full scale). Measure the resistance of the "Ground" pin in the wiring harness to the the negative battery terminal. You should read zero ohms. What do your measure?
4) Leave the CDI unplugged, and turn the ignition switch into the "on" position. Use a meter to measure the DC voltage on the pin labeled "AC ignition power" in the wiring harness to the ground wire on the 20 volt DC scale. You should read battery voltage (12 volts). What do you measure?
5) Leave the CDI unplugged. Use a meter to measure the resistance of the "Ignition Trigger Pulse" pin in the wiring harness to the ground wire on the 2K ohm scale. You should read approximately 150 ohms. What do you measure?
6) Set your meter down to the lowest scale you have for measuring AC volts. 2 volts would be ideal, but some meters don't go that low. In that case use the lowest scale you have. While cranking the engine, measure the voltage on the Ignition Trigger Pulse pin in the wiring harness to the ground pin. You should measure 0.2 to 0.5 volts AC. What do you measure?
7) Now plug the CDI back in. Measure the AC voltage on the Ignition Coil pin to the ground pin using the 200 volt scale. If you have to, use a sewing pin to poke through the wire insulation and then put the meter probe on the sewing pin. But don't hold your fingers on the connection during the next test - there may be high voltage here when the engine is turning. With the ignition on and all kill switches set to the "run" position, crank the starter motor. You should see voltages bouncing around at random values and the meter captures all or part of a spark event. What do you see?
#6
08-15-2012 | 08:30 PM
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Weekend Warrior
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From: eastern NC
Delay
Okay sorry for the delay. I have had a major breakdown that took front stage over getting the four wheeler running. But I have finally gotten a moment to give an update. Lynn thank you for sharing your wisdom. After completing the testing I found the CDI was indeed bad went to local shop picked one up for $10 and brought it back to life. Just to give a heads up it had the A/C CDI system. The only task left now is to clean the carb so it stays running for more then a minute. I have to use my hand to choke it. But thank you for your time once again.
#7
08-19-2019 | 07:15 PM
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