I'd appreciate any input here:

My tired 84 TRX200 needs to be ridden... my most major problem with this rig is hot shutdown.

I bought it for a song, with a trailer, it had no compression. I had a local ATV enthusiast / rebuilder work the dead engine back to life: he miked the bore (taper, diameter and out of round were checked) and he said he needed to only hone out the bore. He put in a Wiseco high compression piston ("9.5:1&quot and appropriate new rings, put in a new stator (no, not a starter), a new coil, new ignition module, and finally he adjusted the carb (no jetting).

Now it starts and runs and charges....
For a few minutes.

My trails are very hilly, and unless I go really gently in the summer, I'll shutdown after about 10-20 minutes riding.

Usually, this lasts about 15 minutes to cool off on hot days, and in the fall, I can sometimes ride for a few hours maximum, before a ten minute cooling is forced.

I think the CDI pickup on the engine is thermally intermittant. I've tried checking wiring harness connectors, opening the gas cap, starting fluid into the intake is no help; I'm pretty certain this is no spark.

My next outing on it will have me carrying a sport bottle filled with water so I can cool the CDI pickup area of the head (yes, I'll cool gently) and hopefully I'll see a shorter time being shut down. If the time is much shorter, thus the pickup in the head is thermal, I know only *one* place to get the parts, the local Honda dealer (gulp). Know any aftermarket ignition suppliers for this rig???

For that matter, know of ANY aftermarket stuff for this rig? I get spotty listings at Rocky Mountain.

But foremost, can anyone tell me about how to get to a guaranteed fix for the hot shutdown? If so, you'll be my and my sons hero: I can ride longer!

And when my TRX200 actually lasts a whole day on the local trails, I'll put the money into the rest of the problems, and then get into a longer club ride.

If not.... the whole thing gets sold to Cycle Mart for about a tenth what I put into the motor, so I can get a different machine to ride. This summer is make or break: it has to work or it gets tossed out.

 

90% of the time, the problem you are having is the stator, but you still can't rule out the CDI and pulser coil. If the CDI is going bad only after the engine has been ran awhile, you need to have your CDI tested. If you can't afford to right now, there is a way you can do it yourself without having any special tools. It can be tested very easily with your oven. Yes, your oven.

You will need to do this when you know that your quad will start. Go out there and crank your quad. If it cranks,..kill it immediately. Unplug the CDI and put it in your oven set at about 200 degrees. Be sure to preheat it to 200 degrees BEFORE you put it in there. Leave it in there for a couple of minutes. Be sure to keep an eye on it and don't let it get so hot that the plastic coatings covering the circuit start to melt. If you do, then you will be buying a CDI anyway. Then take it out. [Watch the hands!!] and plug it back into your wire harness and try cranking your engine again. You need to do all this before the CDI gets a chance to cool down again. If it cranks, the CDI is not causing your problem. If it doesn't crank, then it IS the problem.

As far as the pulser coil goes, it could be done the same way, but chances are that it would have cooled down before you had a chance to install it since it's behind the cam cover and you have to get it in time with the advancer assembly. The ones used on all the ATC185 and 200 models ALL had the same pulser coil and spark advancer, so finding one used shouldn't be a problem at all.

The CDI is a little different. The '84 ATC200ES has the same CDI [and stator], but the ATC185 and 200 models prior to '84 will definitly not work. Even though Honda uses different part numbers on some CDI's..some will interchange. What must be the same is the 3 digit code that is printed on a label on the CDI. The code for the '84 TRX200 is usually VM4, but could be different if Honda switched vendors at any time during the model run.[which happens alot]

The stator off the '84ATC200ES Big Red is the ONLY stator that will work in your quad. The one used on the 185 and 200S and M models will not work because they run in a "dry" enviroment. The '84 TRX200 and 200ES operate in a wet enviroment. [Oil circulates around the stator on these models much like the ATC200X.] The 185 stator will work, but only for a little while. Once it gets soaked with oil...that's it.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,..you said a new stator was installed. It was one for your model and not the universal one for the 3 wheelers wasn't it? If not, that could very well be your problem. If you paid about 20.00 for it, you got the universal one that is not for your model. If you paid around 200.00 or more for it, then you have the right one. The stator coil for your model is not available through the aftermarket.

Hope this helps some.

P.S. Might as well check the ignition coil out to. Same temprature setting as the CDI. Same procedure. If none of this helps, take your quad to a dealer and have them check it out. Most shops only charge for 1 hour to do an electrical check. So check the labor rates at some of your local Honda dealers.

 

One more thing...DO NOT put your CDI in the microwave!!!!!

 

I'm a career Electronics Engineering Technician.... this is familiar territory (thermal evaluation is part of a good design qualifications testing), except I'm used to using Tenney ovens, not my Kenmore!

Ok, so I need to thermally test each component one by one, starting out cold and heating them up to temperature, as if I was riding.... then, when hot, stick it onto the machine and see if it starts. Ok, got it.

Is there some reason why my sport bottle of water idea is less than ideal?

Lets review test technique (not argumentively, just technically): In my method, I ride it till it stops, then I cool things one at a time until I cool the one component which allows the rig to start; repeat as necessary to confirm only one component needs cooling. Everything stays on the machine, everything is where it belongs, in its normal environment, as heated by the machine. In my method, I remove nothing, and if the machine heats something up to, say 250 degrees, I still get it up to the failure temperature.

With your way, I can definitely get some results, but running outside with a 200 degree part in (gloved) hand is going to make for difficult assembly; and I might take too long, the defective part might cool off enough to start to function again... I'd miss finding the defective part if it cooled off, right? And still, what if the machine heats it to 275 degrees? We have no idea exactly what temperature the component is failing at, so if I only heat it to 200 degrees as you suggest, I might get no failure. Yeah, I'd try 225 degrees next, and repeat the tests.....

Over the past 25 years, I've found that each method has a proper place; I'd use my method first though, because the actual failure environment for each component is not known to be below 200 degrees.
In fact, I'll go so far as to buy you lunch if my cylinder head stays *below* 200 degrees on any ride in the spring, summer or fall!!

Is the reason for your suggestion based on not wanting to splash water on a hot cylinder head? If so, I agree there might be problems, but let me also say that I've sunk my old SL125K2 in a stream which was fed by snow melt - without any problems! Maybe the 125 had more metal, maybe I got it pulled out quickly enough, maybe I got lucky.... who knows.

And thanks for the assistance, I appreciate it: not very often I get responses like yours, as knowledgeable, as technical.

For what it's worth, the price I was quoted for the stator was around $230-270... I sure hope it was a new stator, I'm certain he said it was not available in aftermarket. In fact, I told him to try getting it rebuilt by rickystator if he could not locate one. And I was charged for a new coil, etc. Alas, I have no receipts - he kept them and he has left town since then.

Anyway, I just visited http://www.partsfish.com, my rig is listed, I can see a wiring diagram there, so I'll spend some time looking around my machine for the coil, the ignition module, and the CDI module.... so I can squirt each in turn. I won't get to doing this for a few weeks, so be patient, I will *try* to remember to post here about my results. No promises about my memory, though ;-) .

 

My suggestion on on using the oven is just something that has been done for many years by dealerships all over the country, including ours. I have used the method for checking parts on my personal machines in the past as well.

I suppose the water bottle idea of yours would work, but I am not to fond of pouring water over electrical parts. That would be the same thing as running through a pond on your ATV.

Let us know what you find out.

 

Ah! I see, it saves riding the machine.... Dealers riding customer machines is usually seen as an insurance liability risk.

Pouring/Squirting water over electrical parts doesn't bother me.... but I see that it makes sense to point out about getting shocked by the water. I don't think that will be an issue, because I won't be squirting the water at the same time when I'd be pressing the start button: I'll make doubly certain that the ciruit will be dead when I squirt. Adding in a few other bits of wisdom, like knowing where the current path will be if I touch this and touch that at the same time.... I'll be careful.


>That would be the same thing as running through a pond on your ATV.<

(What - you don't skim your ATV over ponds like people around here will skim a sled over open water of a partially frozen lake?? Fraidy cat!!! ;-) People up here do the sled skimming thing all the time, on Lake Winnipesaukee, and smaller local puddles. Of course, there are probably a couple dozen sleds in this state each year that get engine rebuilds after they suck H2O into the cylinders as they sink....)

What is your point about running through a pond on an ATV? Let see, the intake is on the other side of the head from the electricals, and I'm using a quart sized bottle with a nozzle to direct the stream at a certain point. Did I miss something?

 

LOL........The point was that if you get the electricals wet, you risk not even getting a connection at all or worse case senario, you short the circuit out when you press the starter button......The same things that happen when you submerge an ATV. I wasn't refering to the engine.

 

>worse case senario, you short the circuit out when you press the starter button<

The water I'll be using won't be very conductive at 12 VDC, but at Spark plug voltages (15kV or more), yeah, I'll probably have difficulty firing up when that part of the circuit gets wet!

The rest of the electrical circuit shouldn't be very sensitive: I see rigs buried up to their fuel tanks at ATV club mud bogs.... the riders usually admit they cannot drive out, so they kill the rig for fear of overheating, not because the rigs shorted out.

Just gotta be careful where the water gets squirted. And further, I have to be willing to admit that if water hits the spark plug wire, well, I simply gotta decide that the chances of getting spark just went into the toilet, because of the water.

Further support for water testing: think of all the water which sprays underhood when you drive your auto in a hard rainstorm.... Rarely do the modern vehicles die when wet... the "Primary" circuits simply will not leak enough electrical current to "short" out.

IMO, when my spark ignited engines die, I think everyone I've ever troubleshot (cars/trucks, lawnmowers, chainsaws) was dead because the secondary circuit got wet. At 10,000 volts, the spark is barely a few amps on a good, dry day; the problem is that water will conduct tens of amps at 10,000 volts, so the current from the coil goes through the water circuit, not the spark plug circuit... "Shorted" is the phrase used for this effect. Usually, the path is as follows: somewhere on the surface of the plug wire or where the plug wire exits the coil (or distributor cap) will be an electrically "weak" spot, a spot which water is touching, the current can flow out that spot, down the wire to the wet body of the coil, to the frame which is electrical return....

My repairs are usually to wipe the wire dry, add silicone grease, fire it up. If a distributor cap is involved, scrub the distributor cap clean, maybe *buff* some silicone grease on the outside of the cap, then dry the whole cap with heated air, reassemble everything and fire it up.

In short (pun intended), my wet ignition experiences have all been secondary (pun intended).

Thanks, again.

 

I'm speechless and shocked [pun intended]. You are definatly an Electronics Engineering Technician.

I just got more info. from you about 12V electricity than 10 years of Honda schools. However, the water part was always left out.

Hope you get your electrical problems worked out.

 

Nope, never got them figured out.... life took over.