I don't have to worry about snapping the chain with my big 8" jumps[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif[/img]

Man...I wish my wife would camp. There is a 7000 acre ORV park in Eastern Kentucky with beautiful mountain views along with every trail type you can imagine. Some of the trails are 140 miles one way. We are gunna get a guys only trip together one of these days. Hopefully no rain and hail though...

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: propnut<

I know he’s talking about the Japanese automobile market, guess not everyone got it.

So the berating one is saying there’s a big market for average cars (rental companies like them I guess) and light trucks in Japan, and Japan is legislatively keeping us from penetrating it? Do you know that to be a fact? The only fact that results in North America not being able to penetrate the small Japanese market?

There are a yearly sales of about 4,000,000 autos in Japan. LOL, this is hardly a small market.

From numbers I’ve seen GM North America alone (no more US after NAFTA) makes enough automobiles in one year to account for all auto sales in 5 quarters of car sales in Japan. It’s a small market indeed, of demanding consumers (by the way, Toyota ranks #1 in JDPowers Japanese Reports too) In 2003, GM Worlwide sold nearly 8.6 million cars and trucks (more than twice the size of the entire Japanese market) However, GM reports that presence in the entire Asia Pacific is less than 10% of their sales.

I guess 4,000,000 cars is small compared to 4,000,000,000,000. Good argument bud!

Some rebuttals are nonsense and not factual. Some people only learn by arguing. Frustrating to say the least. Who has enough time to bang their head against that wall every day? They definitely aren’t cut out for any type of job that requires face to face with the customer. Maybe quietly running a drill press all day is all they can hold on to.

I love this about you propnut. I do have a drill press in my garage though.

Heck, I figure if GM sells less cars at a loss of $1000 a vehicle, they’ll lose less money. I’m actually helping them if I buy from someone else!!

Thats a good idea. You should do it. GM won't miss you!!

I personally would like to see America make the best of everything. I think we do make the best IT, aerospace, and aircraft (military and commercial) in the world. However, we have fallen behind in the automotive business, among others, and continuing to excessively reward US auto executives for running their company they way they have - just because someone thinks all the money stays in the US and that’s going to straighten the industry's problems out? It is just emotional nonsense.

Dang, we can make computers but we are just to stupid to make cars. Now thats a real good one.

Another example? (running out of time I can waste)

American made products are not poor quality nor are they more expensive in the long run than cheap off-shore products.

Here’s some proof to some of that some are wrong about the autos anyway, remember – red is bad, recalls are bad too.

http://www.autooninfo.net/Reliabilit...torVehicle.htm

This website is interesting. Its basic premise starts with the assumption that off-shore autos are better. It is based on internet surveys which have no possibility to verify the statistical significance of the data. For all we know, 100 people placed all 10,000 surveys. On the other hand JD Powers is quoted as being not worth the paper it is printed on by this web site. However, JD Powers can at least trace its data to something that is statistical believable.

Here, some more FACTS from NADA. Take 2 8-year-old 4 door sedans, like equipped and look at what you’d get retail

1998 Ford Taurus LX V6. Original MSRP $18,445, Current Retail $4,000

1998 Honda Accord LX V6 Original MSRP $19,690, Current Retail $7,700

So, even though they were within $1,200 of each other, the Honda is worth nearly twice as much now? I won't bring up anecdotal stories about each of the reliability reputations and personal experiences with these two vehicles.

Wonder why? It can’t be reliability, right?

Car prices don't define quality or reliability. Car prices are determined by what the market will bear. Don't confuse the two. However, specifically I was talking about the cheap Chinese junk that we always buy that breaks when we first use it. Like junk screwdrivers. Or cheap paper hole punches. Or how about the cheap garden snips that bend the first time you cut a thick branch. But then again, if I am in the market for a used car.. The domestic car is definitely cheaper as you have pointed out and it will last as long or longer. Now if you buy a domestic car and run it till it is no good. Well then you will be as good or better with a domestic auto.

 

Hi,

I've been following along this post for a little while now. Could you please tell me how you purchased a Nissan Armada that lists for 34k for 20?

Now I just want to say that I am all for Domestic car companies. As a matter a fact I will never buy a Jap one. I'm 21 and currently own a Chevrolet S-10. But my next car would definitely either be an Cobra, GTO, Silverado SS or a F-250. However, That's beside the point.

GM has some poor management. I'll give you an excellent example of how they make idiodic decisions. In 1996 the last year they produced full sized cars, they sold a quarter of a million Caprices mostly as cop cars/taxis. They dropped that and basically handed Ford that business.
Now GM is focusing on trucks/suvs in a time of high gas prices. The camaro and firebird, well lets not even get into it. The corvette was outselling them. Sad, very, very sad.

Seeing what my generation drives is very disturbing. The idea of performance cars now is a "riced out" honda civic with a lot of stickers and a "fart can" muffler. This country econically is in a world of hurt, and more and more jobs are just continuously going to be outsourced to exploit the cheapest labor. Personally, I'll try to buy American as much as I can, if I have to spend a few extra dollars then so be it. It is worthwhile for me knowing that I am helping keep money over here and also that I am allowing someone in the US to stay employed. Sacraficing our economy to stimulate a globalized trading community sure as hell isn't what I want to see happen.

 

WELL PUT!

 

There, that's the problem with this myth. American companies outsource more and more every day and it isn't going to stop because you buy American. Your simple tactics will not solve the problem.

You ever see one of those content labels? It doesn't say 90% US content, it says 90 US/CANADIAN content. Or 90% NAFTA content.

Last time I checked, Cananda was a foreign country. (not Canada bashing)

Where does 05PRED say he bought an Armada for $20K? I can't seem to find it. I see where someone suggested he buy something he didn't want for $20K because it was "American" made.

 

Much of Bryce's point revolves around the fact that Imports are cheaper. I did a comparison that got wiped out with my last post. I compared the Camry to the , the Vibe to the Matrix, and the Solstice to the MR-2 Spyder. In EVERY case, the GM product was less money with equivalent options. Additionally, GM discounts the hell out of their cars. Based on price, GM should kill Toyota, but they don't.

Seems to me, the only comparison we can make here is the Vibe versus the Matrix. Since they are the same vehicle. The MSRP on the Matrix is cheaper than the MSRP on the VIBE.

BTW...Talking about my business IS relevant. Small business is the backbone of the US economy. You do not here of small business shipping their jobs over seas. If you want to use what I post, feel free. Just use it factually. The auto industry is not the end all be all. What I pay my folks is very competitve and way above the us mean wage.

Although small business maybe the backbone of the enconomy, looking at it in a thread that asks why we should buy American has no point. We might as well discuss why the sky is blue. And that is exactly why I ask you why you continually bring it up.

You quoted the 80/20 statistic with people that would rather buy American, yet if that were the case, we wouldn't even be having this debate. So, yes, the American consumer is JUST LIKE ME!! Get out of Michigan a little ways and you will see the difference.

LOL, I didn't bring that statistic up.. your friend propnut did. Yes, you got a good point.. I need to travel a bit. Thanks for the tip.

And, no, I do not blame the workers and never said that either. Management is always to be held accountable.

In a previous post, you pointed out that domestic auto workers and their wage and benefits are the cause of GMs problems. Shall I point that post out to you? Or are you now changing your mind?

You obviously didn't read my post. I bought an Armada because it was what I needed. I also wrote it off under sec. 179 IRS code. Show me a truck for 20k that seats 8, has 4WD, leather power seats with memory, has long haul comfort, tons of storage, and of course can tow 9200lbs. Money was never an issue that I brought up other than getting the best value. I bought the vehicle that fit my needs the best. There was not an American vehicle that compared favorably including the Suburban and the Excursion. Your ignorant response was to buy a 20k truck and then a daily beater. Good answer!! Buying 2 vehicles is NOT the best value.

Hmm.. I read your post. Glad you wrote it off. LOL, you just have to throw in those "little business" tid bits don't you. LOL, once again this information does not contribute in the least to the original question of why we should buy American. But yes, it was an ignorant response from me because it was not a particularly useful post from you.

Toyota will not need to shift their manufacturing out of Kentucky. You have heard of "lean Manufacturing haven't you. They have a phenominal system set up here that allows the efficiencies they need. They don't hide their methods and several books have been published about their systems. Why doesn't GM try and immitate? Well, I guess they are. They do try and recruit executives from Toyota.

LOL, I am suprised that you actually believe that Toyota will be there forever. They don't hide their methods because typically production methods and machinery is manufactured by companies other than the auto companies. They all know it. They all use it when they build new plants or revamp their old plants. And yes, all companies recruit from all others. This is a fact of life.

I am waiting for anything different from you about the original question of this thread. That is "Why buy American". So far, I have been quite specific on my opinions about why buy American. However, from you... I know your business, your yearly sales, the cars you drive, the amount you pay your employees, your benefits, your retirment plans, your boat weight, boat LOA and boat length..... Your useful contribution to "Why buy American" is, it doesnt matter what you buy. OK, if that is your opinion. But why don't you leave it at that and quit while you're ahead.

 

this just confirms that you have no idea what lean manufacturing is or what you're talking about

 

I wish!! Ha! Ha! My Armada listed for 42k. It is an LE 4WD. Bryce was just making a point about buying a truck for 20k to do the job my Armada does. I got a good deal...but it wasn't THAT good.

I agree with you about kids and their "modded", and I use the term losely, Civics. But, there are some outstanding imports such as the 350Z. I owned the 2nd one in Kentucky until I totaled her last year when the road gave way. You certainly don't have to spend more to get a similarly equipped Mustang. Plus, there are tons of aftermarket parts for the Stang. It is just a different type of car than the Z.

The global market IS going to happen like it or not. My point is that people shouldn't be made to feel guilty simply because they bought what they want. If people want to buy American, GREAT! I don't care what their reason is.

 

I compared various models of vehicles and in EVERY case, the domestic was less money. You can try and re-class if you would like. But, I chose cars that are in the same class and directly compete. Yes, the Matrix base is lower. But, as I did with all of the cars, you must compare equally equipped vehicles. Then add the ridiculous discounts tham GM gives and the are still getting beat handily in most classes of vehicle. So, that part of your argument has been completely debunked.

If you look throughout the average home, there are products from all over the world. I looked at the tag on my underwear and they were made in Jamaica. I thought I had a little island in my lately [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/img] Point is, as propnut said, content of our products is from around the world. The companies that work in that marketplace will not only keep American jobs, they will GROW American jobs.

Bryce, I am simply not so closed minded to look at the world in such a limited scope. I bring up multiple points in order to prove various pieces of our debate. I am glad you mentioned that I should quit while ahead, because I am. "Buy American" to keep jobs here does and will not work. The floodgates are open to a global marketplace, so I, along with most of the rest of the US, will embrace it and continue to succeed in life.

 

Bryce you can explain these things till your blue in the face and some people well never get it.Till they go to work someday and find there job is headed over seas.Then theyll get it.