85 to 88 Suzuki LT230S Quadsport help.
#1081
10-20-2007, 11:01 PM
85 to 88 Suzuki LT230S Quadsport help.
LOL, no, I'm not looking for a reason NOT to run stage 2. Independent of the graphs n crap, the guy at Vince's cycle and the owner of webcams already told me not to use stage 2 a few days ago. I didn't catch his name at Vince's (I guess it could be Vince), and a very nice guy who stayed on the phone with me until neither of us really wanted to talk anymore, lol. His main problem with stage 2 was the lift and didn't really comment on the durations. He said anything over .280 in lift didn't flow any better. Therefore, I should get a cam with the least lift in order not to beat up my valvetrain needlessly. Apparently, he used to build these bikes for racing back in the day and still has all the flow numbers handy. Lori over at webcams was also super nice! She will happily stay on the phone and answer any questions you have. Once she heard I was going to do trail riding she recommended stage 1 for me. Of course, she will gladly grind anything I want too. The 3 grinds listed in the catalog are not the only ones they do. I think she said they have something like 13 masters on hand for the 230. If webcams would grind out of billet instead of welding I would rather pay a few extra bucks to have them grind a custom cam just coz they so nice and helpful. I've heard bad things about megacycle's customer relations, but I've never talked with them personally.
No, I'm not trying to bash stage 2 at all or webcams. I was just saying coz PoolGod said he had the stage 2 and was getting worried. I just need to talk to some more people with real seat of the pants experience. But like I said before, a lot of respected people have used stage 2 (including white brothers) and I guess they recommend it. I think its the most popular grind for the 230.
No, I'm not trying to bash stage 2 at all or webcams. I was just saying coz PoolGod said he had the stage 2 and was getting worried. I just need to talk to some more people with real seat of the pants experience. But like I said before, a lot of respected people have used stage 2 (including white brothers) and I guess they recommend it. I think its the most popular grind for the 230.
#1082
10-20-2007, 11:10 PM
#1083
10-20-2007, 11:16 PM
#1084
10-20-2007, 11:36 PM
85 to 88 Suzuki LT230S Quadsport help.
I think the 72mm is for the 250 version. Find rings for the 250 and you have it. Who made your piston? Wiseco apparently don't make them. http://www.wiseco.com/PDFs/Catalogs/CB07/SuzukiATV.pdf
#1085
10-21-2007, 10:58 AM
85 to 88 Suzuki LT230S Quadsport help.
I can see why the stage 2 would bring up valvetrain wear concerns. The first thing I noticed, the first time I fired it up after the upgrade, was the noise comeing from the head. There is a real issue of wear on the rocker face. With the added lift and spring pressure, something has gotta give, right?
I had the same concerns, To counter-act the extra friction, I use a full synthetic oil.
This worked well for me because the piston rings had time to seat before the super slick oil went in. And no, it does not affect the clutch's.
Use a good quality small engine brand and you will have no problems with the clutch's.
Ive used automotive grade with no problems at all. It comes in more flavors and is less expensive to buy, making oil changes a little less painfull.
Ive got a couple extra sets of rockers, just in case i start seeing metal in the filter.
Oh, that reminds me.
I dont know if everyone does this or not but, After each oil change, cut open your old filter and check for small particals of metal.
If you find any suspicious "grindings", use a magnet on any thing you find. It can help narrow down where the problem might be. The aluminum case and piston are not magnetic, the gears, shafts, sleeve and valvetrain are.
I had the same concerns, To counter-act the extra friction, I use a full synthetic oil.
This worked well for me because the piston rings had time to seat before the super slick oil went in. And no, it does not affect the clutch's.
Use a good quality small engine brand and you will have no problems with the clutch's.
Ive used automotive grade with no problems at all. It comes in more flavors and is less expensive to buy, making oil changes a little less painfull.
Ive got a couple extra sets of rockers, just in case i start seeing metal in the filter.
Oh, that reminds me.
I dont know if everyone does this or not but, After each oil change, cut open your old filter and check for small particals of metal.
If you find any suspicious "grindings", use a magnet on any thing you find. It can help narrow down where the problem might be. The aluminum case and piston are not magnetic, the gears, shafts, sleeve and valvetrain are.
#1087
10-21-2007, 03:05 PM
#1088
10-21-2007, 04:34 PM
85 to 88 Suzuki LT230S Quadsport help.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: BigMc
I can see why the stage 2 would bring up valvetrain wear concerns. The first thing I noticed, the first time I fired it up after the upgrade, was the noise comeing from the head. There is a real issue of wear on the rocker face. With the added lift and spring pressure, something has gotta give, right?
Oh, that reminds me.
I dont know if everyone does this or not but, After each oil change, cut open your old filter and check for small particals of metal.
If you find any suspicious "grindings", use a magnet on any thing you find. It can help narrow down where the problem might be. The aluminum case and piston are not magnetic, the gears, shafts, sleeve and valvetrain are.</end quote></div>
Hey! That's a good idea about cutting the filter and using a magnet. And I just changed mine too,,, ****. I took it with 2 fingers n dropped it right into the trash, lol. That brings up a funny story.... I changed the filter in my bayou for the first time and like the 230, I just dropped to filter in the trash. Of course, I had the rest of the engine tore down for a rebuild, so it was some time before I put the new filter in. The trash was looong gone by then. Come to find out there was a check valve inside the oil filter that routed oil around the filter incase the filter got too plugged up. Luckily, I had enough parts around and good enough drawings to make one while I was waiting for one to be shipped. Needless to say, I always at least look down the hole before tossing the filter, lol.
On the stage 2, the lift is the reason for the spring kit they suggest you get. She told me the stock springs bind at .410 to .420 and anything over .370 was a must for new springs. Even though stage 2 is only .360, she still recommends the spring kit. And the hardened rockers are because the cam is hard welded. The cam surface and rocker surface will not wear in together. The cam will act like a file of microscopic virtue and will never become smooth due to the rocker being softer. That's the way I understand it anyway.
I was thinking,,, if Vince's flow numbers are right (I have no reason to think they aren't) and the best flow occurs at .280 lift (which sounds logical to me considering valve and port size), why do all the aftermarket cams have such a big lift? Do big numbers sell more cams? Stage 3 has .425 lift! Surely back in 1985 they had flow benches to test for best flow before designing a cam. I know they didn't have fancy software back then, but at least flow benches. So, who's right? Webcams or Vince?
I know there is a point where air stops flowing any better. Like a garden hose... You turn the water valve and water starts coming out, but if you keep tunring and turning, water doesn't come out any faster after a point. Question is where is that point (.280 ????) and why go over it?
I can see why the stage 2 would bring up valvetrain wear concerns. The first thing I noticed, the first time I fired it up after the upgrade, was the noise comeing from the head. There is a real issue of wear on the rocker face. With the added lift and spring pressure, something has gotta give, right?
Oh, that reminds me.
I dont know if everyone does this or not but, After each oil change, cut open your old filter and check for small particals of metal.
If you find any suspicious "grindings", use a magnet on any thing you find. It can help narrow down where the problem might be. The aluminum case and piston are not magnetic, the gears, shafts, sleeve and valvetrain are.</end quote></div>
Hey! That's a good idea about cutting the filter and using a magnet. And I just changed mine too,,, ****. I took it with 2 fingers n dropped it right into the trash, lol. That brings up a funny story.... I changed the filter in my bayou for the first time and like the 230, I just dropped to filter in the trash. Of course, I had the rest of the engine tore down for a rebuild, so it was some time before I put the new filter in. The trash was looong gone by then. Come to find out there was a check valve inside the oil filter that routed oil around the filter incase the filter got too plugged up. Luckily, I had enough parts around and good enough drawings to make one while I was waiting for one to be shipped. Needless to say, I always at least look down the hole before tossing the filter, lol.
On the stage 2, the lift is the reason for the spring kit they suggest you get. She told me the stock springs bind at .410 to .420 and anything over .370 was a must for new springs. Even though stage 2 is only .360, she still recommends the spring kit. And the hardened rockers are because the cam is hard welded. The cam surface and rocker surface will not wear in together. The cam will act like a file of microscopic virtue and will never become smooth due to the rocker being softer. That's the way I understand it anyway.
I was thinking,,, if Vince's flow numbers are right (I have no reason to think they aren't) and the best flow occurs at .280 lift (which sounds logical to me considering valve and port size), why do all the aftermarket cams have such a big lift? Do big numbers sell more cams? Stage 3 has .425 lift! Surely back in 1985 they had flow benches to test for best flow before designing a cam. I know they didn't have fancy software back then, but at least flow benches. So, who's right? Webcams or Vince?
I know there is a point where air stops flowing any better. Like a garden hose... You turn the water valve and water starts coming out, but if you keep tunring and turning, water doesn't come out any faster after a point. Question is where is that point (.280 ????) and why go over it?
#1089
10-21-2007, 04:35 PM
#1090
10-21-2007, 04:44 PM
85 to 88 Suzuki LT230S Quadsport help.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: 270quadsportguy
i havent tore it down but i think its either 72 or 74 mm and is a wiesco piston 43827700 is partnumber for my other piston witch they dont list on wiesco either"(</end quote></div>
I'm pretty sure its the 72mm. 72 bore and 67 stroke make a 272.89cc engine. I'm sure a long time ago somebody got the bright idea of taking the 250 jug and putting it on the 230 case n crank and having a 273. So, the piston is pretty likely a stock 250 piston. You might have to call wiseco n ask.
If nothing else, I've seen guys take bigger rings and file the end gap down to fit. It works long enough to win swamp buggy races n that kinda thing. I don't know if there are long term considerations though.
i havent tore it down but i think its either 72 or 74 mm and is a wiesco piston 43827700 is partnumber for my other piston witch they dont list on wiesco either"(</end quote></div>
I'm pretty sure its the 72mm. 72 bore and 67 stroke make a 272.89cc engine. I'm sure a long time ago somebody got the bright idea of taking the 250 jug and putting it on the 230 case n crank and having a 273. So, the piston is pretty likely a stock 250 piston. You might have to call wiseco n ask.
If nothing else, I've seen guys take bigger rings and file the end gap down to fit. It works long enough to win swamp buggy races n that kinda thing. I don't know if there are long term considerations though.