85 to 88 Suzuki LT230S Quadsport help.
#2361
01-31-2008, 10:51 AM
85 to 88 Suzuki LT230S Quadsport help.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JustRandy
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: gforce34
I haven't been able to do to much the last few days. My wife and kid both had the flu so between that and work....good news is they are recovered. I did send off my cylinder to KustomKraft to have it rebored and they will send it back with the bigbore kit as well. I also on the same day sent my camshaft to webcams and they are going to send me a new one this friday with the new springs and refund my core charge. new it's just ordering the 50 other "little" things to get this project rolling ahead.
I'm going to try to call Vince tomorrow and ask about the crank since like you mentioned Randy we will be throwing around a much heavier chunk of metal and could cause some horrific vibrations. I think you mentioned PG experienced this cause he posted about it along time ago and I remember something about he was using the 250's piston which made it around a 273 or something to that effect. Either way I have a feeling he will say it would be extremely wise to have it rebalanced.</end quote></div>
I called Vince today, ironically, lol. Finally got around to it. He actually remembered me from last yr... Anyway, short story is he can't balance a crank. He recommended a place called valacon (if I can figure out how to spell it I could look it up [img][/img] ). At first he was thinking balancing is not that big of a deal and suggested that my crank may be bent if I'm having bad vibration issues. Either that, or just the high compression mixed with a stock cam makes the vibrations and a longer durations cam would take care of that. Secretively, I still think there are balance issues because I know first hand the weight difference of a 66mm and a 67.5 mm piston,,, its big. I just didn't push it too hard with him tho.... [img][/img] He also said the fact that its a single cylinder engine makes for some degree of unbalancing anyway. A twin would balance and a single can never be.
Then, I started telling him about my plans with the 250 4wd and he got all excited about hooking me up with a "long rod" for my 230 crank. He said 2 identical bikes, but one with a long rod and it will be faster than the short rodded bike. Sounds good to me. Not only is it faster, but also lasts longer due to less rod angle and less friction against the cylinder wall. So, I'm game for the 4mm longer rod. Just need to figure out how long the cam chain needs to be for 4mm extra cylinder height. And, of course, need some type of adapter plate for the base gasket to add 4mm (maybe I can just use a bunch of base gaskets???).
I really think we're on to something with this long rod. It will increase longevity a lot and possibly add more power on the top end. The problem.... balancing! Damn. Thought I "might" be able to get away with an unbalanced 70mm piston, but add a longer rod too??? I'm going to have to find somebody somewhere that can balance the crank. Or at least talk to someone who knows... Coz I really feel in uncharted territory on this one.</end quote></div>
Where does Vince get this long rod from? I'm guessing it's a stronger rod then our stock one. Would our stock cam chain not work if you don't "tighten" the tensioner to the point we would normally if it were stock? In other words is there enough slack when you first put it on before tightening it? (I don't know my chains broken).
What if one were to take or send a gasket to a machine shop and say I need a base plate made of "X" thickness to accomidate for the gasket thickness making it add up to 4mm.
If all this is possible since this is "uncharted territory", then how does a machine shop know how much weight to add to a crank in order to balance it? Does one send them the piston, rod and bearings and say make it work or do we buy or take it to a place with an accurate scale like say the post office[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img] and weigh everything and say make the crank "X" weight?
I wish I knew more about this but at this point I am looking inside an motor for the first time and much less thinking of modding said motor with all the "X" factors, I feel like a teenager attempting to bumble his way thru first time sex.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: gforce34
I haven't been able to do to much the last few days. My wife and kid both had the flu so between that and work....good news is they are recovered. I did send off my cylinder to KustomKraft to have it rebored and they will send it back with the bigbore kit as well. I also on the same day sent my camshaft to webcams and they are going to send me a new one this friday with the new springs and refund my core charge. new it's just ordering the 50 other "little" things to get this project rolling ahead.
I'm going to try to call Vince tomorrow and ask about the crank since like you mentioned Randy we will be throwing around a much heavier chunk of metal and could cause some horrific vibrations. I think you mentioned PG experienced this cause he posted about it along time ago and I remember something about he was using the 250's piston which made it around a 273 or something to that effect. Either way I have a feeling he will say it would be extremely wise to have it rebalanced.</end quote></div>
I called Vince today, ironically, lol. Finally got around to it. He actually remembered me from last yr... Anyway, short story is he can't balance a crank. He recommended a place called valacon (if I can figure out how to spell it I could look it up [img][/img] ). At first he was thinking balancing is not that big of a deal and suggested that my crank may be bent if I'm having bad vibration issues. Either that, or just the high compression mixed with a stock cam makes the vibrations and a longer durations cam would take care of that. Secretively, I still think there are balance issues because I know first hand the weight difference of a 66mm and a 67.5 mm piston,,, its big. I just didn't push it too hard with him tho.... [img][/img] He also said the fact that its a single cylinder engine makes for some degree of unbalancing anyway. A twin would balance and a single can never be.
Then, I started telling him about my plans with the 250 4wd and he got all excited about hooking me up with a "long rod" for my 230 crank. He said 2 identical bikes, but one with a long rod and it will be faster than the short rodded bike. Sounds good to me. Not only is it faster, but also lasts longer due to less rod angle and less friction against the cylinder wall. So, I'm game for the 4mm longer rod. Just need to figure out how long the cam chain needs to be for 4mm extra cylinder height. And, of course, need some type of adapter plate for the base gasket to add 4mm (maybe I can just use a bunch of base gaskets???).
I really think we're on to something with this long rod. It will increase longevity a lot and possibly add more power on the top end. The problem.... balancing! Damn. Thought I "might" be able to get away with an unbalanced 70mm piston, but add a longer rod too??? I'm going to have to find somebody somewhere that can balance the crank. Or at least talk to someone who knows... Coz I really feel in uncharted territory on this one.</end quote></div>
Where does Vince get this long rod from? I'm guessing it's a stronger rod then our stock one. Would our stock cam chain not work if you don't "tighten" the tensioner to the point we would normally if it were stock? In other words is there enough slack when you first put it on before tightening it? (I don't know my chains broken).
What if one were to take or send a gasket to a machine shop and say I need a base plate made of "X" thickness to accomidate for the gasket thickness making it add up to 4mm.
If all this is possible since this is "uncharted territory", then how does a machine shop know how much weight to add to a crank in order to balance it? Does one send them the piston, rod and bearings and say make it work or do we buy or take it to a place with an accurate scale like say the post office[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img] and weigh everything and say make the crank "X" weight?
I wish I knew more about this but at this point I am looking inside an motor for the first time and much less thinking of modding said motor with all the "X" factors, I feel like a teenager attempting to bumble his way thru first time sex.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
#2362
01-31-2008, 11:48 AM
85 to 88 Suzuki LT230S Quadsport help.
LOL! Well, he said the long rod has always been an option, he's just never had anyone techie enough to try it. I don't know where he gets it from, there must be another suzuki application that uses it,,, I guess. He said the rods are stronger than stock, so I guess that means they are at least as strong if nothing else. In any case, even a stock rod is not the weak link,,, the bearings are. He never came out n said he didn't like Hot Rods, but he just said they are made in Taiwan and added, "do you like tools made in Taiwan?". Made sense to me.
I don't know enough about the chain to answer your question. All I know is the 2 sprockets that the chain rides on will be 4 or so mm farther apart than before. 4mm is just 4 x .040 = .160 inches. Maybe we won't even use all 4mm because we may have room to "deck" the piston w/o having to mill the jug. (Decking means to bring the top of the piston level with the top of the jug, usually done by milling the jug down level with the piston). Decking can increase something called quench. Quench is when the flat surface on the piston comes very very close to a flat surface on the head. That near impact between the piston and the head creates a violent turbulence and the end effect is you can run a higher compression ratio w/o higher octane gas. Quench is a GOOD thing! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] Maybe we can just use 3 or 4 base gaskets to adjust where we need the jug to be. Just a thought,,, but we may have to cut the valve reliefs a little more in the piston to accomodate both the higher lift and duration cam and the piston coming up higher in the bore. I need to write that down....
Any shop with a CNC can make a base plate adapter, but you'd have to supply the measurements I think. 4mm isnt a lot... I think we can just use a few gaskets. I need to mic a gasket and see how many it would take.
To balance the crank, you'd have to send them the crank, rod, piston, wrist pin, and rings. At this point, I'd rather pay the $120 for someone else to balance it dynamically rather than me fooling around trying to get a static balance as close as I can with a post office scale. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] But I havent talked to anyone about it yet, so you never know.... Tomorrow I may be thinking about doing it myself.
I don't know enough about the chain to answer your question. All I know is the 2 sprockets that the chain rides on will be 4 or so mm farther apart than before. 4mm is just 4 x .040 = .160 inches. Maybe we won't even use all 4mm because we may have room to "deck" the piston w/o having to mill the jug. (Decking means to bring the top of the piston level with the top of the jug, usually done by milling the jug down level with the piston). Decking can increase something called quench. Quench is when the flat surface on the piston comes very very close to a flat surface on the head. That near impact between the piston and the head creates a violent turbulence and the end effect is you can run a higher compression ratio w/o higher octane gas. Quench is a GOOD thing! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] Maybe we can just use 3 or 4 base gaskets to adjust where we need the jug to be. Just a thought,,, but we may have to cut the valve reliefs a little more in the piston to accomodate both the higher lift and duration cam and the piston coming up higher in the bore. I need to write that down....
Any shop with a CNC can make a base plate adapter, but you'd have to supply the measurements I think. 4mm isnt a lot... I think we can just use a few gaskets. I need to mic a gasket and see how many it would take.
To balance the crank, you'd have to send them the crank, rod, piston, wrist pin, and rings. At this point, I'd rather pay the $120 for someone else to balance it dynamically rather than me fooling around trying to get a static balance as close as I can with a post office scale. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] But I havent talked to anyone about it yet, so you never know.... Tomorrow I may be thinking about doing it myself.
#2363
01-31-2008, 12:32 PM
85 to 88 Suzuki LT230S Quadsport help.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JustRandy
LOL! Well, he said the long rod has always been an option, he's just never had anyone techie enough to try it. I don't know where he gets it from, there must be another suzuki application that uses it,,, I guess. He said the rods are stronger than stock, so I guess that means they are at least as strong if nothing else. In any case, even a stock rod is not the weak link,,, the bearings are. He never came out n said he didn't like Hot Rods, but he just said they are made in Taiwan and added, "do you like tools made in Taiwan?". Made sense to me.
I don't know enough about the chain to answer your question. All I know is the 2 sprockets that the chain rides on will be 4 or so mm farther apart than before. 4mm is just 4 x .040 = .160 inches. Maybe we won't even use all 4mm because we may have room to "deck" the piston w/o having to mill the jug. (Decking means to bring the top of the piston level with the top of the jug, usually done by milling the jug down level with the piston). Decking can increase something called quench. Quench is when the flat surface on the piston comes very very close to a flat surface on the head. That near impact between the piston and the head creates a violent turbulence and the end effect is you can run a higher compression ratio w/o higher octane gas. Quench is a GOOD thing! [img][/img] Maybe we can just use 3 or 4 base gaskets to adjust where we need the jug to be. Just a thought,,, but we may have to cut the valve reliefs a little more in the piston to accomodate both the higher lift and duration cam and the piston coming up higher in the bore. I need to write that down....
Any shop with a CNC can make a base plate adapter, but you'd have to supply the measurements I think. 4mm isnt a lot... I think we can just use a few gaskets. I need to mic a gasket and see how many it would take.
To balance the crank, you'd have to send them the crank, rod, piston, wrist pin, and rings. At this point, I'd rather pay the $120 for someone else to balance it dynamically rather than me fooling around trying to get a static balance as close as I can with a post office scale. [img][/img] But I havent talked to anyone about it yet, so you never know.... Tomorrow I may be thinking about doing it myself.</end quote></div>
The only problem I see with gaskets is aren't they designed to swell and contract with the heat/oil. The suzuki clymer manual says something to this effect at the end of chapter 1 end of pg 4 beginning pg 5. This would cause variances in height at any given time and possible leaks.
Cutting the piston valve reliefs doesn't seem to me necessary to me because you have raised the entire topend by approximately 4mm. Unless you do what you mentioned by milling the jug but then you would have to increase the base thickness more, lets say for argument sake 6mm to accomodate for taking away the material from milling the jug to get the "Quench effect".
LOL! Well, he said the long rod has always been an option, he's just never had anyone techie enough to try it. I don't know where he gets it from, there must be another suzuki application that uses it,,, I guess. He said the rods are stronger than stock, so I guess that means they are at least as strong if nothing else. In any case, even a stock rod is not the weak link,,, the bearings are. He never came out n said he didn't like Hot Rods, but he just said they are made in Taiwan and added, "do you like tools made in Taiwan?". Made sense to me.
I don't know enough about the chain to answer your question. All I know is the 2 sprockets that the chain rides on will be 4 or so mm farther apart than before. 4mm is just 4 x .040 = .160 inches. Maybe we won't even use all 4mm because we may have room to "deck" the piston w/o having to mill the jug. (Decking means to bring the top of the piston level with the top of the jug, usually done by milling the jug down level with the piston). Decking can increase something called quench. Quench is when the flat surface on the piston comes very very close to a flat surface on the head. That near impact between the piston and the head creates a violent turbulence and the end effect is you can run a higher compression ratio w/o higher octane gas. Quench is a GOOD thing! [img][/img] Maybe we can just use 3 or 4 base gaskets to adjust where we need the jug to be. Just a thought,,, but we may have to cut the valve reliefs a little more in the piston to accomodate both the higher lift and duration cam and the piston coming up higher in the bore. I need to write that down....
Any shop with a CNC can make a base plate adapter, but you'd have to supply the measurements I think. 4mm isnt a lot... I think we can just use a few gaskets. I need to mic a gasket and see how many it would take.
To balance the crank, you'd have to send them the crank, rod, piston, wrist pin, and rings. At this point, I'd rather pay the $120 for someone else to balance it dynamically rather than me fooling around trying to get a static balance as close as I can with a post office scale. [img][/img] But I havent talked to anyone about it yet, so you never know.... Tomorrow I may be thinking about doing it myself.</end quote></div>
The only problem I see with gaskets is aren't they designed to swell and contract with the heat/oil. The suzuki clymer manual says something to this effect at the end of chapter 1 end of pg 4 beginning pg 5. This would cause variances in height at any given time and possible leaks.
Cutting the piston valve reliefs doesn't seem to me necessary to me because you have raised the entire topend by approximately 4mm. Unless you do what you mentioned by milling the jug but then you would have to increase the base thickness more, lets say for argument sake 6mm to accomodate for taking away the material from milling the jug to get the "Quench effect".
#2364
01-31-2008, 12:43 PM
85 to 88 Suzuki LT230S Quadsport help.
You may have a point with the gaskets, not sure on that. Anyway, how about copper shims?
Say each gasket is 1mm. So we'd put 4 at the bottom of the jug to bring everything back to "stock" form at the top of the jug. Now, suppose we decide to mill the jug to bring the piston up higher. Instead of milling, lets just take one of the gaskets out from the bottom. Now the piston comes closer to the top. Not saying this will work exactly, but it may be possible. We'll just have to see what it looks like when it done I guess. And now, since the piston will come up higher, we may need to shave the valve reliefs to accomodate the extra height,,, and extra valve lift and duration. I know PG said something before about his machinist doing some piston work like that. Maybe we should just be sending our stuff to his guy? He seems like a guy that can do it all. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
Say each gasket is 1mm. So we'd put 4 at the bottom of the jug to bring everything back to "stock" form at the top of the jug. Now, suppose we decide to mill the jug to bring the piston up higher. Instead of milling, lets just take one of the gaskets out from the bottom. Now the piston comes closer to the top. Not saying this will work exactly, but it may be possible. We'll just have to see what it looks like when it done I guess. And now, since the piston will come up higher, we may need to shave the valve reliefs to accomodate the extra height,,, and extra valve lift and duration. I know PG said something before about his machinist doing some piston work like that. Maybe we should just be sending our stuff to his guy? He seems like a guy that can do it all. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
#2365
01-31-2008, 12:55 PM
#2366
01-31-2008, 01:44 PM
85 to 88 Suzuki LT230S Quadsport help.
The dyno sim doesn't take into account rod lengths. There is no option for that in the program. Theoretically, it should rev higher and rev easier, and therefore have more power due to higher revving. Power aside though, it WILL last longer because the angle of the rod is reduced and; therefore, less friction on the cylinder wall.
The debate is endless on the net about short vs long rods. Some guys like short rods, some like long. But what everybody agrees on is the longevity of a long rodded engine.
Why does everybody use the +5 rod on the banshee?
The debate is endless on the net about short vs long rods. Some guys like short rods, some like long. But what everybody agrees on is the longevity of a long rodded engine.
Why does everybody use the +5 rod on the banshee?
#2368
01-31-2008, 01:59 PM
85 to 88 Suzuki LT230S Quadsport help.
Yep it's going to be $329.00 for the boring/new sleeve/big bore kit. $20.00 return shipping. $7.75 to ship to them priority mail w/ $100.00 insurance. Total cost of $356.75.
I don't know the size of the piston other then the fact that it makes it a 260cc.
I don't know the size of the piston other then the fact that it makes it a 260cc.
#2369
01-31-2008, 02:24 PM
85 to 88 Suzuki LT230S Quadsport help.
Sounds good to me. I wonder if they can balance the crank too? I know they will probably tell you "the BB kits dont need balancing." That's what I've been getting from a few other places that can't even hook me up with a BB kit. But I beg to differ on that. madmanengineering tried to talk me out of a BB kit because its only for drag racing and mudding. But he does balance the crank for $175. Sound high. 4stroketech.net doesn't offer the 70mm piston and he didnt seem like he wanted to make a sale either. Wanted to argue more about the 4mm rod having a 17mm small end instead of a 16mm. So, I called Vince back and he assured me the end is indeed 16mm for the +4 rod. Now, if I can just figure out how to get kustom kraft on the horn, I'll be doing pretty well. Still waiting on Bear Boring to call me back too.
#2370
01-31-2008, 03:05 PM
85 to 88 Suzuki LT230S Quadsport help.
Once I get the bigbore/cylinder back I'm going to weigh the stock piston and the new piston and see how much of a differential there is and take it from there.
I don't know why everyone feels the need to say well this grind is for blah, blah application or this kit is for blah blah purpose. It's not like we are taking a Quadzilla and turning it into a death machine[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img] It's a modified lt230 that will have much better power on tap is all.
I don't know why everyone feels the need to say well this grind is for blah, blah application or this kit is for blah blah purpose. It's not like we are taking a Quadzilla and turning it into a death machine[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img] It's a modified lt230 that will have much better power on tap is all.